Mike Pence Seen as Key Witness in Jan. 6 Investigation

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Getting the erstwhile vice president to reply questions nether oath could beryllium important arsenic the House sheet focuses connected Donald Trump’s work for the Capitol riot.

Former Vice President Mike Pence could beryllium  a cardinal  witnesser  for the House committee   investigating the Capitol riot. He reportedly has not decided whether to cooperate. 
Credit...Charles Krupa/Associated Press

Jan. 10, 2022Updated 6:27 p.m. ET

As the House prime committee investigating the Jan. 6 battle connected the Capitol rushes to stitchery grounds and behaviour interviews, however acold it volition beryllium capable to spell successful holding erstwhile President Donald J. Trump accountable progressively appears to hinge connected 1 imaginable witness: erstwhile Vice President Mike Pence.

Since the committee was formed past summer, Mr. Pence’s lawyer and the sheet person been talking informally astir whether helium would beryllium consenting to talk to investigators, radical briefed connected the discussions said. But arsenic Mr. Pence began sorting done a analyzable calculation astir his cooperation, helium indicated to the committee that helium was undecided, they said.

To immoderate degree, the existent concern reflects negotiating strategies by some sides, with the committee anxious to suggest an aerial of inevitability astir Mr. Pence answering its questions and the erstwhile vice president’s advisers looking for reasons to bounds his governmental vulnerability from a determination that would further complicate his ambitions to tally for president successful 2024.

But determination besides appears to beryllium increasing tension.

In caller weeks, Mr. Pence is said by radical acquainted with his reasoning to person grown progressively disillusioned with the thought of voluntary cooperation. He has told aides that the committee has taken a crisp partisan crook by openly considering the imaginable for transgression referrals to the Justice Department astir Mr. Trump and others. Such referrals, successful Mr. Pence’s view, look designed to wounded Republican chances of winning power of Congress successful November.

And Mr. Pence, they said, has grown annoyed that the committee is publically signaling that it has secured a greater grade of practice from his apical aides than it really has, thing helium sees arsenic portion of a signifier of Democrats trying to crook his squad against Mr. Trump.

For the committee, Mr. Pence’s grounds nether oath would beryllium an accidental to found successful item however Mr. Trump’s pressuring him to artifact the certification of Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s triumph brought the state to the brink of a law situation and helped animate the storming of the Capitol connected Jan. 6, 2021.

It could besides beryllium captious to the committee successful deciding whether it has capable grounds to marque a transgression referral of Mr. Trump to the Justice Department, arsenic a fig of its members person said they could see doing. The imaginable complaint floated by immoderate members of the committee is usurpation of the national instrumentality that prohibits obstructing an authoritative proceeding earlier Congress.

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Credit...Stefani Reynolds for The New York Times

The operation of the unit brought to carnivore connected Mr. Pence and Mr. Trump’s repeated nationalist exhortations astir his vice president — “If Mike Pence does the close thing, we triumph the election,” helium told supporters connected the Ellipse conscionable earlier they marched to the Capitol — could assistance the committee physique a well-documented communicative linking Mr. Trump to the impermanent halting of the ballot certification done rioters focused, astatine his urging, connected Mr. Pence.

A transgression referral from the committee would transportation small ineligible weight, but could summation nationalist unit connected the Justice Department. The section has fixed small denotation of whether it is earnestly considering gathering a lawsuit against Mr. Trump.

Attorney General Merrick B. Garland said past week that national prosecutors remained “committed to holding each Jan. 6 perpetrators, astatine immoderate level, accountable nether instrumentality — whether they were contiguous that time oregon were different criminally liable for the battle connected our democracy.” But helium did not notation Mr. Trump oregon bespeak whether the section considered obstruction of Congress a complaint that would acceptable the circumstances.

There are nevertheless immoderate aboriginal indications that national prosecutors moving connected charging the Capitol rioters are looking cautiously astatine Mr. Trump’s unit connected Mr. Pence — and his efforts to rally his supporters to support up that unit adjacent aft Mr. Pence decided that helium would not artifact certification of the Electoral College results.

In plea negotiations, national prosecutors precocious began asking defence lawyers for immoderate of those charged successful Jan. 6 cases whether their clients would admit successful sworn statements that they stormed the Capitol believing that Mr. Trump wanted them to halt Mr. Pence from certifying the election. In theory, specified statements could assistance link the unit astatine the Capitol straight to Mr. Trump’s demands that Mr. Pence assistance him stave disconnected his defeat.

Gina Bisignano, a Beverly Hills beautician who helped her chap Trump supporters smash astatine a model astatine the Capitol, noted successful tribunal papers connected to her plea that she had marched connected the gathering specifically aft proceeding Mr. Trump promote Mr. Pence “to bash the close thing.”

While successful the crowd, the papers say, Ms. Bisignano filmed herself saying, “We are marching connected the Capitol to enactment immoderate unit connected Mike Pence.” The papers besides enactment that erstwhile Ms. Bisignano reached the building, she started telling others “what Pence’s done,” and encouraged radical carrying tools similar hatchets to interruption the window.

Similarly, Matthew Greene, a subordinate of the Central New York section of the Proud Boys, said successful tribunal papers connected to his ain blameworthy plea that helium had conspired with different members of the far-right radical to “send a connection to legislators and Vice President Pence” who were wrong the Capitol certifying the last signifier of the election.

“Greene hoped that his actions and those of his co-conspirators would origin legislators and the vice president to enactment otherwise during the people of the certification of the Electoral College ballot than they would person otherwise,” the papers said.

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Credit...Cooper Neill for The New York Times

Mr. Trump’s unit run connected Mr. Pence has been good established successful quality reports and books implicit the past year. Mr. Trump, aided astatine times by a little-known blimpish lawyer, John Eastman, repeatedly pressured Mr. Pence to intervene successful Congress’s certification of the 2020 statesmanlike election, saying helium had the powerfulness to hold oregon change the outcome.

Mr. Pence consulted a assortment of radical successful weighing what to do, and erstwhile helium yet refused, Mr. Trump attacked him with harsh words.

Once the mob stormed the Capitol, with immoderate rioters chanting for Mr. Pence to beryllium hanged, Mr. Trump initially brushed speech calls from aides and allies to telephone them off.

In the past week, astir the day of the Jan. 6 riot, some the president of the committee, Representative Bennie Thompson, Democrat of Mississippi, and its vice chairwoman, Representative Liz Cheney, Republican of Wyoming, person suggested they privation Mr. Pence to attest voluntarily.

On Friday, Mr. Thompson told NPR that the committee mightiness contented Mr. Pence a ceremonial invitation arsenic soon arsenic the extremity of the month. That aforesaid day, different committee member, Representative Adam B. Schiff, Democrat of California, underlined Mr. Pence’s value successful a tv interview, saying helium viewed him “as an indispensable idiosyncratic to speech to.”

A refusal by Mr. Pence to cooperate could pb the committee to instrumentality the highly antithetic determination of subpoenaing a erstwhile vice president, mounting up a imaginable tribunal combat that could hold a solution for months arsenic the committee tries to wrapper up its enactment earlier the election.

Mr. Pence’s idiosyncratic lawyer, Richard Cullen, began discussions this summertime with the apical researcher connected the House Jan. 6 committee, Timothy Heaphy, a erstwhile national prosecutor. Mr. Cullen had worked alongside Mr. Heaphy astatine the aforesaid instrumentality steadfast respective years ago.

Key Figures successful the Jan. 6 Inquiry


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Since then, the committee has declined to formally inquire Mr. Pence for an interrogation and Mr. Cullen has told the committee helium is unsure what Mr. Pence volition do. Both sides hoped that, fixed Mr. Cullen’s narration with Mr. Heaphy, they could enactment retired immoderate benignant of agreement.

Complicating the negotiations, Mr. Cullen, who helped Mr. Pence navigate the Russia probe without being called arsenic a witness, volition person to measurement speech arsenic Mr. Pence’s lawyer due to the fact that helium volition go a apical advisor to Virginia’s incoming governor, Glenn Youngkin, erstwhile Mr. Youngkin is sworn successful this week.

In the lack of Mr. Pence’s cooperation, the committee is trying to larn however Mr. Pence handled the unit from Mr. Trump. Last fall, the committee interviewed J. Michael Luttig, a erstwhile national justice who recovered himself coming to Mr. Pence’s assistance successful the 2 days starring up to the Jan. 6 attack. Mr. Luttig, successful effect to a petition from Mr. Cullen, a longtime friend, enactment retired a connection that said Mr. Pence had nary quality to halt the certification of the election, which Mr. Pence yet utilized arsenic governmental and ineligible screen successful his determination to subordinate Mr. Trump.

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Credit...Erin Schaff/The New York Times

In their questioning, committee investigators asked Mr. Luttig if Mr. Pence was wavering astir what to bash successful the 2 days earlier Jan. 6. Mr. Luttig told the committee that helium thought Mr. Pence had decided what to do.

In caller weeks, the committee has moved to question Mr. Pence’s erstwhile main of staff, Marc Short, and his erstwhile main counsel, Greg Jacob, who are considered the 2 cardinal Pence witnesses.

Mr. Short and Mr. Jacob were some intimately progressive successful Mr. Pence’s information of whether to spell on with Mr. Trump’s assertions that helium could enactment to artifact the certification of the Electoral College results. Three days earlier the Jan. 6 riot, the 2 men met with Mr. Eastman, a lawyer past advising Mr. Trump, astir Mr. Eastman’s memo mounting retired a lawsuit for wherefore Mr. Pence had the powerfulness to clasp disconnected the certification.

Media reports and a connection from astatine slightest 1 committee subordinate person fixed the content that Mr. Pence’s squad has provided important cooperation, and immoderate of his erstwhile aides person spoken with the committee. But Mr. Short, arguably the astir important witnesser from the team, publically attacked the panel’s credibility 3 weeks ago.

“I can’t person a batch of assurance that this committee is going to supply immoderate benignant of impartial analysis,” Mr. Short said connected Fox News. “I deliberation that erstwhile the Democrats rejected the radical that Kevin McCarthy enactment guardant to marque it a much bipartisan commission, I deliberation it went down much of a governmental show-trial path.”

Although Mr. Short was subpoenaed by the committee, helium has yet to attest and has refused to perpetrate to cooperating with it. His lawyer, Emmet Flood; committee lawyers; White House lawyers; and the National Archives are negotiating implicit what topics Mr. Short tin sermon and whether immoderate are covered by enforcement privilege.

If Mr. Pence rebuffs the panel’s petition to attest voluntarily, it volition beryllium forced to determine whether to subpoena a erstwhile vice president, a determination that Congress is believed to person not taken since it subpoenaed John Tyler, a erstwhile president and vice president, successful 1846.

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